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The presuposition above is that violence is what helps us maintain the life we live. I have two responses to that:
1. Violence is not the only way to respond. Look at Ghandi and other non-violent leaders. And, it is important to note that diplomacy and non-violence are different things. Yes, as noted above, some tried to "negotiate" with people like Hitler and failed. But, in that instance, some people (not enough) resisted Hitler and the Nazis in a non-violent way and succeeded (look at the story of the town of Le Chambon and Andre Trocme).
2. Just because we have a great life does not mean that we deserve or are entitled to it. We have blessings. That does not mean that we deserve them or have a right to them. When I say that, I do not mean blessings like rule of law, stable society, or various freedoms. Those are things that I would be inclined to say people "deserve". The "blessings" I have a problem with are making sure that we can purchase certain things at good prices (oil, bananas, diamonds, etc...). Or, I have a problem if we have these blessings at the expense of someone else.
In the end, I am happy to be an American, but we have to be willing to critique our own history. Because, we are first and foremost Christians and not Americans.
What Kurt is saying is that the American Revolution was an unjust war if you are basing it on the just war theory. T
That said, if you want a great discussion on if the Revolution was a just war, by someone infinitely more qualified to speak on this than myself, check out this article by Mark Noll.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1999/februa...
Romans 13
1Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. 4For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. 6This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. 7Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
It appears that rebellion against one's government because of taxation issues is not an appropriate response for Paul. Why do Christians celebrate this day?
it's not a biblical reason, but (even though I am English) I disagree with you, and here's why.
In England we do not have a national day; we have stuff like the Queen's official birthday (focussing on one person who represents the nation) and St George's day (focussing on one person who may or may not have existed, or been called George, but who certainly wasn't English.)
It is frequently said over here that our nation lacks a sense of national identity and national pride. On the 4th of July, even if the underlying history is a little suspect, at least the USA celebrates nationhood, national pride etc. unashamedly.
In England, even St George is regarded as a little right wing for some (being a crusader ...) and so we find it hard to focus properly on English national pride without reverting backt to the pre-postmodern era of "The English the English The English are best and I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest!"
cheers
Tim
I fully respect where you come from on this one. But, the only thing that I would challenge is the idea that my freedom to choose came from our independence. I am free to chose because God has given me a free will. Just like the Christians who suffered persecution during the first century and so on, I have the ability to choose because of the grace of God. Even if we had not separated ourselves from England, most likely it would have turned out pretty good. Canada never revolted, and they are doing just fine (socialism aside, they have basic freedom).
Again, I simply think it is important to recognize that the End doesn't justify the Means... and the means were not 'just' on this one. Killing over taxes doesn't sound like the way of Jesus... if this were so, he would have taught his disciples to fight the Romans rather than to endure and suffer. Roman taxes in Jesus' day were way more oppressive than with the English and king George.
Finally, I love fireworks, hanging with friends and BBQ's. I just think that as Americans, we need to be willing to critique our past.
L&S
RTW
Glad to know that there are others who ponder and question why we do what we do, i.e. followers of the way.
1. I am not sooo anti 4th that I am revolting or not wanting to hang out. I actually thought about saying more about the positives, but rather more of the negatives came out. Let me say that i love fireworks, bbp's, and a chance to hang out. I also love that I have had the privilege to grow up in this country. I love living in the USA and my pride goes as far as the way that I have had an easy experience in life compared to others across the world because of it. So, I am not "anti-America" by any stretch, and I am happy that i live here. What I think is that we need to recalculate our past and allow the gospel to be critical of certain things we now celebrate. Is it honorable to kill because we didn't like being taxed... I think the Jesus who says "love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" would probably say "no."
2. on a more personal note, I love my friend charles and he one of the people i had in mind when I wrote "I have a great deal of respect for those who are Christians and who 'support' military and our troops. Those who serve our country (although I may disagree with it to some extent from my standpoint theologically) deserve respect for their sacrifices and I am glad to have some friends who have served or are serving in the armed forces." I love my friend Charles and respect him more than most. He loves Jesus with all his heart, soul, mind, and strength; so this is not an area that I would ever question of any Christians who hold to "just war theory." I beleive that what he used his military service for was not a 'lost cause' and that God was at work in his life through this experience.
3. I am grateful for our freedom, but as Daniel and Heather have said, I am more grateful for the freedom I have in Jesus. Whether I am allowed by the government to worship or may be put in jail; my prayer is that I would worship him anyway. Historically, the church has thrived under persecution.
4. Again, let me say that I am glad to be an American as long as this doesn't negate that Canadian Christians matter just as much, or Palestinian Christians for that matter. My heart is just to call out our past evils... although the current benefits of the revolution have been good for us in many ways. I am not convinced that the End Justifies the Means on this one!
Thanks for your input! Chuck, I cant wait to see you when you get back!!!
you have to give up common things like good health and food. i lost 25 pounds the first deployment and 30 the next because all i ate was MRE's everyday and had vomiting and diarhea every other week and climbed mountains every day. there is a alot to other than just laying your life on the line for your country. i think its more hard to have a life long commitment of servitude than it is to "take a bullet" for a buddy on the battle field. obviously i'm talking of serving Christ vs. going off to war and dieing for a human cause. but in the end i was just trying to say that there is alot more to than just going off to "war." but anyways i love you and respect you. as an old time friend and brother in Christ you and i are on the same team. i hope you have a good weekend and i'll see you when i get back. later buddy.
As for my "Russian" friend... even though you are sarcastic as i will get out, you made me laugh and ultimately that is what friends should do when they disagree! Have a great 4th no matter what your perspective is!
You are not crazy. Last 4th we attended a different kind of celebration, one that was dependent on God and his creation.
Very different and moving. What most americans fail to understand is that this country was not built on independence, but on commerce. Looking for a way to make money.
There is a documentary on the 4 DVD set of Pearl Harbor that traces the time line from just before the founding of the nation and how we brought something to the far east that the culture there did not want.
This is part of the reason that USAers are not thought well of in the world.
Those that KNOW Jesus understand that ALL cultures are a part of the creation and we need to understand whos image we are made in.
WE, the USA, have been made in the image of a people that came to get out from under an oppressive King. Now we have a so called government that is "by the people, for the people" and most of them had "money" when they founded the nation. Also, this "Christian nation" is a lie! Go read the entire Declaration of Independence and see that, if the founders were correct, that we can start the country all over again.
Most of what they found wrong about King George, has happened again because we are still imitating a governmental system that doesn't quite work.
What kind will? One that recognizes the God of Abraham, the Father of Jesus.
This nation was not founded on Christian values, though some do match up. There is a different culture that will define all humans. And it is not found in the man made laws.
I thught you'd like to know I have posted a link to this post at
http://timchesterton.blogspot.com/2009/07/just-... to show you you're not the only one.
In light of the way the discussion has gone, my question (again as an outsider) would be do you think Bonhoeffer was wrong to oppose Hitler? Is it wrong for oppressed South American aborigines to protest at their treatment? Was it wrong for pro-democracy demonstrators to take to the streets in Iran?
History has papered over the cracks of the relationship between Britain and North America in the 18th century. I'm no expert but its pretty clear from the way the Empire developed subsequently that the underlying aim of the colonial power was subjection, oppression, exploitation and inculturation.
By breaking free from Britain, the US was able to nurture a much more diverse national identity, encompassing Irish, Dutch, Polish, Jewish, Russian, Scandinavian, French, Spanish, Italian etc etc (and even eventually Native American) elements. Surely this is something to celebrate.
There is a novel called "The two Georges" (http://www.amazon.com/Two-Georges-Novel-Alterna...) which speculates what might have happened if George Washington and George 111 had made peace. it is of course conjecture but a facinating element of that is the number of technological innovations we would possibly lack were it not for the foundation ofthe USA
with every blessing
Tim
I want to come back to the core of my argument... I am simply asking whether based on "just war theory" if the Revolutionary War was justified from a Christian perspective? Again, no matter what the result may have been, the END doesn't justify the MEANS. Fighting a war over taxation DOES NOT qualify theologically. Preemptive war cannot be viewed as just. This is a war that was fought over the "root of all kinds of evil."
Also, I am ok with protest. I believe in exposing the powers of this world in nonviolent ways. Good for Iran... especially those who are nonviolent in their approach. Perhaps this is a reason that the outside world has been watching so closely.
Last thing. Canada never fought against your country and they experience the same freedoms as the US. This would have been the more just route to have taken for the colonists.
Well, Tim, this is a very short answer to your comments so I know they are insufficient. But hopefully you have a basic understanding about where I am coming from on this one...
Blessings to you as well!!!!!!
As far as celebrating the 4th outside of church, there has to be a balance between feeling pride in one's country while still being able to critique its failings. It's difficult, as every "high" point in our nation's history is inevitably linked with some terrible missteps. I am grateful to be able to think, speak, worship, work, and rest freely, and I recognize that not everyone in the world has those freedoms. Why was I born in a free country and others were not? And while the typical line is to thank a soldier for making me free, I can't help but think that my freedom also cost the lives of other innocent civilians.
So what's the appropriate response? Perhaps instead of blowing our cash on fireworks, we could give the money to those in need-- perhaps to a charity that helps people in a not-so-free country. That would show adequate thanks for our freedoms and also try to pass it on to others in a peaceful manner. Just a thought.
But seriously, I do think the church needs to be in the forefront of asking the hard question about all those soldiers "dying for our freedom." I DON'T MEAN TO SLIGHT THE SOLDIER HERE, for I highly respect the spirit in which they offer their service; however, they/we have been sold a bill of goods when told that the outcome of their action is freedom.
1) The extent to which freedom is the outcome--even for us--doesn't hold up well to serious scrutiny. WWII is the exception that is often used to prove the rule (though WWII was more for the freedom of the Europeans than us in America, I suspect), but the harsh reality is that most wars (ours and others') are fought for far more complex reasons than anybody's freedom, and often for questions of power and money. The link between Saddam Hussein or the Taliban and "our freedom" is pretty tenuous IMO. As you point out Canadians (you didn't say so, but also Indians-of India not America-and Australians) are as free as we are without a bloody revolution. So was violence necessary to secure our freedom? Or was freedom the inevitable result of our violence? To both questions, I suggest not.
2) The extent to which our freedom--if that is the outcome--comes at the cost of others' death and misery is something we need to contemplate far more seriously. Is it a fair trade? The widows and orphans of Korea/Vietnam/Iraq/Afghanistan (or 17th-century Britain) would, I suspect, answer in the negative.
3) The soldier is glorified for his willingness to "die for us." But his real job is not to die (which only happens if things go badly), but rather to kill for us. I don't want that bloodshed to be committed in my name or on my behalf--and unless I abandon this nation for which I truly am grateful, I am not "free" to have the soldier NOT kill for me. . .
Dan --- As my comrade Rush Limbagh would say... "DIDO!"
Ultimately there were provocations from both sides (British and American) that led to a full scare war, but the war only started after a long diplomatic process had been carried out.